Editor's note: As the 24th China-EU Summit convenes on December 7-8, the EU seeks the right balance in its policies on China and the U.S. So, besides the EU's heavy hitters, how do other member countries like Hungary take stock of EU-China relations? What's in it for them? Gladden Pappin, President of the Hungarian Institute of International Affairs, shared his insights from a Hungarian perspective, in an interview with CGTN international editor Abhishek G. Bhaya. The views expressed in the video are Pappin's own and not necessarily those of CGTN.

Edited excerpts:

CGTN: Hungary is kind of a marquee state for European nationalism in some way. Could you provide a Hungarian perspective on the global order and assess the China-Hungary relationship in that context?

Gladden Pappin: I think people are often surprised when they see Hungary present at events on globalization because there's such a misperception in the international media that Hungary is a country that's somehow closed off or backward-looking. Far from it. We are a very conservative country. We're a traditional country that values family values. But we actually consider that to be the basis for our international exchange.

People became alienated in the totally neoliberal world and in many of those decades, there was the idea that everyone would share just one global international culture that would be driven by American consumer brands. But actually, we are entering into a very different world. And in the multi-polar world, the importance of your national identity and strength is an important basis for making those connections.

So, Hungary, because of its geographical location, has very good trade ties with the West and also with the East. We think that's important, not only for us but for the rest of Europe as well.

CGTN: There's a growing perception that European countries lack independence in their foreign policy, especially concerning China and Russia, and are viewed as vassal states of the United States. Is there some justification in that assessment?

Gladden Pappin: Unfortunately, I think that there have been trends in that direction, particularly since the beginning of the Ukrainian war, or the war in Ukraine. And the situation has been that Europe has pursued policies that are not actually beneficial to it. From the Hungarian viewpoint, the sanctions on Russia have basically backfired and we said at the beginning that they would. And I think even many American commentators now realize that's the case. But there is enormous pressure put on Europe from the outside. Of course, it came from within Europe as well. It wasn't purely external.

But energy is the primary input into an economy and when energy prices go up through decoupling or through sanctions, then everyone is hurt. So, there's been a steady de-industrialization in Germany; consumers have been facing higher energy prices, and we think it's straightforward to say that's bad for European strength and European competitiveness.

Unfortunately, what's happening is that a lot of European leaders are just not talking about this. They just want to pretend that it doesn't exist, but you can't wish reality away. It's going to come back and it's already here.

CGTN: Another notable development is that Italy is looking to pull out from the China-proposed Belt and Road Initiative (BRI). How do you believe Europe should balance its relations with major powers like China and the U.S. while safeguarding its strategic interests and independence?

Gladden Pappin: I think that a better sense of European strategic autonomy would enable it to have those different relationships. The trade relationship between China and Europe isn't going away and it can't go away. Whenever it's damaged, for example, through withdrawals from the Belt and Road Initiative or the kind of collapse of the 16+1 platform in Central and Eastern Europe, that has economic consequences that are not good.

So, we have to re-frame the debate and realize that European strategic interests include being able to pursue more of its own foreign policy that depends upon a lot of factors and a real change in mentality and spending and economic and military development. But the relationship with China is one that already exists. It has already existed, and it can't go away. So, the states who are benefiting from it, we hope, will be more vocal about that.

So sometimes Hungary is the one that speaks up most clearly. But I know that behind the scenes, other people are beginning to share the same opinion. And so, we have to hope that cooler heads prevail.

CGTN: In the emerging world order and global governance model, how do you perceive President Xi Jinping's three global initiatives – the Global Development Initiative (GDI), the Global Security Initiative (GSI), and the Global Civilization Initiative (GCI)?

Gladden Pappin: I think that these are important initiatives that are modeled on a base of economic development. And I think that any initiatives that are oriented toward economic development and peaceful exchange are good ones. Hungary views China not as a threat, but as an opportunity. We have to push back against this idea that there's a zero-sum mentality in the world, that the benefit of one always comes at the expense of the other.

Having grown up in the United States, I know why that mentality exists. Because for a while, the U.S. was the only player. And so, it feels that any development elsewhere is a threat to it. But it seems that China has a different view of this that there can be shared development. Obviously, there are a lot of challenges that are going to be encountered in different parts of the world. Unfortunately, we've seen that in Europe in some of the departures from the Belt and Road Initiative.

But frankly, we have to eventually realize that people can pull out of economic arrangements, but they do so only at their own cost. That costs go up; there's an opportunity cost and industrial development goes down. I think we have to find whatever the initiatives are – from the East [or] from the West – that are pointing in this more cooperative direction on a strong national basis and pursue those.

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